Thursday 20 August 2015

Why Men Aren't Lord Sheringham et al

The Ninth Laird of Auchinleck. Not safe in taxis.
I took Georgette Heyer's Friday's Child off the shelf the other evening. In case you don't remember,
it's the one where Lord Sheringham, aka Sherry, marries a 17 year old girl named Hero in a fit of pique because the lovely Isabella Milborne won't have him. Also, Sherry won't get his inheritance until he is 25 unless he marries. So Sherry, whose gambling debts are oppressive, picks up little Hero--otherwise doomed to become a minor teacher/drudge at a girls' school in Bath--and carries her off to London. Hero, who knows nothing of the facts of life, has always had a crush on Sherry, so is absolutely delighted.

I forget how many pages in Sherry first slaps Hero. I can't remember if it is before or after he buys her a mountain of new garments, or even if it is before or after he marries her. However, Sherry slapped Hero when they were children, and he slaps her now.

Oh yes--it was after they were married, for silly Hero, who understands that men like Sherry have girlfriends as well as wives, even though she still doesn't know what they do with either, saw a lady on stage flutter her eyelashes at Lord Sheringham, lost her head, and asked him if that was his "opera dancer." Because Georgette Heyer's world is one of preposterous hypocrisy, wives are never supposed to admit to knowing about their husbands' mistresses, so it's all a hilarious joke that the innocent bride has just done so. Sherry has thus lost face, and so when he gets Hero home, he wallops her.

I had forgotten that there was domestic abuse in Georgette Heyer although of course we all know there are other kinds of violence, especially attempted murder, aka duelling. Duelling is fun in books, but rather horrible in real life, as I found out in my early twenties when I asked an admirer to do something about the teasing I was getting from another. All that happened on that occasion was that Admirer 1 suddenly grabbed the arm of Admirer 2, and the tension was so awful, I instantly repented. I have an amateur's interest in boxing, but any woman who enjoys the sight of men fighting over her should go and talk about that with a priest. Ick.

Of course, women have very little to do with the duelling in Georgette Heyer's novels: it is all about men's relationships with each other. Quite a lot of things women think are about them are actually about men's relationships with each other. The man in Dubai who recently stopped life guards from rescuing his drowning daughter probably didn't hate his daughter. He was just worried about losing face in front of other men--possibly even the life guards. It seems absolutely insane to me that some men keep their "honour" on the skin of their female relations, but there you go. Again this may sound very romantic in books, but in real life it is horrible.

"Hero" incidentally, is the name of a girl in Shakespeare who feigned death because her admirer had believed an accusation that she had had sex. I forget if Viscountess Sheringham will also suffer such an outrageous libel--so far she is still as "innocent as a newborn lamb"--but no doubt we are supposed to suspect it. Sherry has no interest in bedding a nicely brought up seventeen year old just because his society, religion and the law says he has the right to do so. He might slap the girl like a naughty child (as one did when Georgette was writing all this stuff) but unless they "fall in love," forget about the fun stuff.  I suppose there may be men like this, but I am hard pressed to imagine that they are also the ones who bed high-class prostitutes, gamble away fortunes and drive extremely dangerously--as Sherry certainly does.

Hmm.

The principal thing about Georgette Heyer's men is that we don't know any men anything like them, unless we hang out with men who are also multi-millionaries, e.g. professional footballers, and footballers usually come from the working classes. Sometimes I amuse myself by imagining which rung of the Heyer class ladder I would land on, and the closest I can come up with is that I am the daughter of a university don who has married my Lord of Historical House's secretary, a clever man of humble origin who through sheer intelligence and determination, etc., etc. I spend my days writing letters and chastizing my few female servants, giggling with snobbish joy when the spinster daughter of my Lord of Historical House deigns to drop by for a cup of tea. However, such ordinary people never feature in Heyer's landscape, which is populated only by a staggeringly rich oligarchy, a few rich middle-class people, shopkeepers, servants, prostitutes of various rank, peasants and chavs who give gin to their babies who shut them up.

Heyer was brilliant at description, but she was not particularly interested in the full reality of Georgian England, in which a very small (but very rich) group of people rode roughshod over everyone else, their massive fortunes created by the work of real or virtual slaves. And of course it would not be as much fun to read about Hero's new wardrobe if we could see the conditions in which the frothy lace was made. We do not want to imagine ourselves as the lacemaker, be she in a factory or in a hovel, dying of TB while slowly going blind. No! We want to imagine ourselves as Hero, just seventeen, as innocent as a newborn lamb, and valued for this quality by our handsome husband who gives us tons of elegant stuff--silk dresses, jewellery, carriages--and by all his snazzy friends.

Well, that's okay. That's okay unless we start expecting men to actually act like Georgian aristocrats, or expecting them to act towards us as if we were Georgian aristocrats ourselves. If I were not to move from my seat but to go back in time to Georgian days, I might very well overhear James Boswell below me downstairs, and if so I would immediately change out of my pjs into some proper clothes and lock myself in my room, lest Boswell come upstairs looking for some middle-class, middle-aged lady action. Oor Jimmie wisnae fussy, aye.

The drawback of being  lifelong bookworms is that we compare men of real life to the men of books and find the men of real life wanting. Our books teach us a code of behaviour that no longer exists, if it ever did exist. Our books can also brainwash us into adopting the point of view of people who are not on our side. Sometimes I wonder why, despite having voted SNP, I am such a terrible Tory at heart, and I suspect it has something to do with Rosemary Sutcliffe, Georgette Heyer, Agatha Christie, Evelyn Waugh and just about every author I admire who had enough leisure time to write amusing sex-free books. As a child I was naturally not permitted to read books with sex in them,  and as a devout Catholic, I generally don't want to, which meant the vast majority of books I read were published before 1960.

Goodness. What a long post. If you're still with me, sound off in the combox about your favourite heroes of literature and if you have ever met real men anything like them at all. I think at best we have met a number of hobbits, perhaps Frodo. When I first came to Edinburgh, I met a lot of people who I thought were just like people in books, but since then I have reflected this was just because they spoke like British people in British books. That said, characters from Trainspotting occasionally take the Rough Bus and I've overheard Begby in Easter Road Stadium.

Update: My mum says deconstructing Georgette Heyer is harsh. I found this message after I had gobbled the rest of Friday's Child and downed a stiff G&T, so I feel a tad guilty. However, too many women think Austen's and Heyer's fantasies are somehow Really True, so here am I to say they are not. If you want to live in Georgian England, with servants, luscious silk garments, etc., may I suggest Bangladesh? But  I'm afraid the class disparities are rather more obvious there than they are in the works of our glorious J & G.

52 comments:

  1. Not all Georgette Heyer's heroes were dashing adventurers. (I think I wrote a blog post about this many years ago.) She also created several sensible, somewhat Wodehousian fellows who would certainly have burnt their poetry; I seem to remember that the hero of Cotillion was of that type. But her most realistic book about marriage in the Georgian era, showing that under her froth she did understand the realities of Georgian marriage and was not entirely ruled by snobbery or "romance", was A Civil Contract. If you haven't read it, you should. I think you'd like it, although it's more melancholy than most of her other books.

    I suspect that you aren't a Tory at heart, but a Whig, like nearly all North Americans, a Burkean Whig, that is. Although there are people who insist that Burke betrayed his principles by refusing to support the French Revolution (after having supported the American one), he always maintained that the French variant was an invitation to tyrants to overthrow all ordinary human and natural relations. Some of us believe that events have proven him right; others still argue that he abandoned the Whig cause. And so continues the major political battle of the years 1789-2015...

    n.b. Upon visiting the US, Waugh decided that he might be a kind of liberal after all, having noted that the American form of democracy seemed to be better able to allow the Church to flourish. Whether he was right about that is today somewhat less apparent than it appeared to be at that time.

    Alias Clio

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  2. Gilbert Blythe was always a bit of an ideal for me as a girl. I new one boy in high school who was a little like him, or I might have just wanted him to be a little like him.

    I like GK Chesterton's heros, but I've only know one other person who has read Chesterton. Which now that I think of it he is kind of like those men, he has the earnest, madcap adventure thing down.

    Oh and Joe Willard from the Betsy-Tacy books.

    Most of the books I read are also published before 1960. The first time I went to a dance in 8th grade I was horrified to find it was not like it was in books.

    By the by, I've been reading for along time now, your advice has been quite helpful and I'm very grateful for it.

    Kels

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    1. Oh poor you. That's really very sad. As inevitable as it was always going to be, I hate thinking of a13 or 14 year old girl finding out dances are not like in books. :-( The good news is that now that partner dancing has been all the rage, or at least revived, since the 1990s, some dances ARE like dances in books. YAY!

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    2. Yes, I got over it eventually and then joined a ballroom dance club in college, which went a bit better, the men actually asked me to dance sometimes. All of your post about swing dancing make me want to try it again!

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  3. Oh, I loved Gilbert Blythe too!! But seriously, how did Anne not know she liked Gilbert? (Or why did she refuse to see that she did?? I never quite figured out which it was supposed to be.) Totally unrealistic. That still bugs me. So maybe the fact that he was still around when she finally realizes that she loves him kind of sets up unrealistic expectations? But overall I think Gilbert was a great example of a nice, solid guy.

    And Samwise Gamgee, of course, is awesome! :)

    And I think a number of lesser known-characters from children's books are actually lovely examples. Daniel, from 'The Bronze Bow' is one of the ones who springs to mind. Johnny Tremain. Jeff, from 'Rifle for Waite'.

    Oh, and actually, Edward and Col. Brandon from 'Sense and Sensibility.' Both realistic (I think, anyway) and wonderful examples of good men. Definitely not Darcy, though. :)

    My 9th grade class actually reads 'Sense and Sensibility' each year, and we use the story to talk about the importance of character when deciding whom to marry. :)

    I haven't met anyone exactly like them, but I've met lots of men who have their good qualities.

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    1. Edward and Colonel Brandon were the equivalent of multi-millionaires, so NOT realistic for the average reader. But I am very glad the 9th grade talks about the importance of character when deciding whom to marry.

      Sam is a fantastic character but rather feudal for nowadays. Apart from all that forelock tugging "Oh, Mister Frodo" stuff, I think I know a Sam or two. Sam is utterly decent, and I was very glad about Rosie and all the children. As Frodo obviously has PRIEST stamped all over him, a girl could do worse than to marry a Sam. And as Sam is a good old blue-collar dude with great leadership skills quite attainable for the majority of my readers. Er, should you all find him.

      This would be a REALLY GOOD TIME for male readers to pop in and tell us which male characters in books they think are actually like guys in real life. Now that I think about it, I think Jake Barnes from "The Sun Also Rises" is an awful lot like men in real life, or at least Ernest Hemingway. I should have liked to have married Hemingway in his Catholic phase, only being divorced for the next gal would have been a bore.

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    2. But I really don't remember their wealth playing that much of a role, beyond what one would expect in a historical novel set in this time? I think most readers are intelligent enough to distinguish between the elements of a character that are practical to apply to today's life (virtue, etc.) and those that aren't? At least, it's been the case in my experience, even with my 9th graders. :)

      I'm sorry if I'm totally missing the point on this!! :) But I don't see why they can't be good examples of manhood/the kind of guy one should want to marry?

      And that would be SO interesting!! Southern Bloke, where are you?? :)

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  4. Anne didn't know she loved Gilbert because she was young and had unrealistic romantic notions about what a suitor would be like. She didn't really know what love was, and given that she lived her first years being serially misunderstood (not to mention being treated horribly), that's not so surprising. Real life love is quiet, like a whisper, and if you don't know how to listen for it, you won't hear it.

    I was very much attracted to Gil as a character, and in the irony of life, I loathed my husband when I met him. Loathed. I cannot think of anyone else I have so quickly and decisively disliked. I didn't break a slate over his head, but I internally seethed until the day that I realized he was actually a nice guy, and I felt horrible about hating him so much. A month later I was certain that he was the perfect man for me. Real life can be just as strange as fiction.

    I cannot remember the later Anne books as well because they differ so much from the movie, which I have seen 1,000 times. The movie did a great job of paring down the ridiculous number or proposals Anne received. Anyway, in the film's rendition of the story, Anne finally meets the knight in shinning armor she always dreamed of and doesn't feel all the feelings she thought she would. It is my theory that when Mr. Harris proposed, Anne thought of home and thought of Gil and realized immediately how horribly wrong she had been. Anne is just lucky that Gil was devoted enough to her, recognized his devotion and acted on it by calling off the wedding with Christine. That could have gone another way. Also, I always hated that her name was Christine. I always identified with Anne (I had reddish hair, loads of freckles, a love of writing and books and a sad childhood that caused me spend a lot of my time in a fantasy world in my own head), but I was always afraid of being Christine, a woman engaged to a man who was head over heals in love with another woman. And since I thought Gil was pretty much the perfect guy, and Anne was everything I wanted to be, that would have been a great tragedy.

    -Christine W.

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  5. Various points to Christine W.:

    Did the series have Mr Harris propose to Anne?!?X? In the books he was a neighbour and a (much older, eccentric) friend, not a suitor. Her most serious suitor, other than Gilbert, was Roy Gardiner.

    Gilbert was never actually engaged to Christine in the books.

    Anne's number of proposals was really not "ridiculous" by the standards of her time. Nice men used to propose more often than they do today, back when they had little hope of having sexual relations unless they got married or resorted to prostitutes. One of my aunts had been proposed to seven times (I think) by the time she was seventeen, and she was a young woman in the early 1950s, not the 1890s.

    Alias Clio

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    1. What TV did to the Anne books would make a purist weep. I haven't made myself watch the World War I special. If you'll believe it, they made Gilbert fight it, not Anne's sons. Yeah. Anyway, the television Mr Harris was not at all like the neighbour. He is the father of a girl at the school where Anne teaches--a nod to "Anne of Windy Poplars", I think. I await the day there is a a proper seven movie series of the Anne books, although I'm sad Megan Follows is too old and poor Jonathan Crombie gone to his eternal reward.

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    2. Def. don't watch the WWI movie. AWFUL!

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    3. And Clio-You're right. Her neighbor is actually Mr. Harrison, and he's already married. (Although they don't know it for a while, because he quarreled with his wife and left her behind. :) There's never anything romantic between him and Anne.

      And Christine wasn't in love with Gilbert either. She was actually engaged to someone else at the time that she was hanging out with Gilbert.

      And Christine W., I know that's what the author was trying to portray (Anne falling in love with Gilbert), but there's a point in the books after which, I just don't buy it. Anne is clearly in love with Gilbert for a while, and I just don't think anyone is that un-self-aware to not realize it. :) It just gets old and ridiculous. But I don't think the movie portrayed it the same way.

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    4. At least, Christine was engaged to someone else in the book. I don't remember what happened in the movies, and I've never watched the tv show.

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    5. I do hate not being an Anne purist. I'm used to hating movie versions for ruining a great story. I think the first Anne book is by far the strongest, and the last time I tried to read them all, I got stuck in the middle of Windy Poplars. Sorry. At least I'm apologetic.

      Some of the proposals (in the books) do feel forced to me. Anne is someone many of us can appreciate, but I'm not sure she would have been a huge hit with the men of her time. She was smart and ambitious, but those traits would have been a negative to at least some of them. She was not a classic beauty. Diana really is the one who should have gotten all the proposals.

      Sorry I forgot that Gil was never engaged to Christine in the books! As I said, I got stuck in Windy Poplars. I want to try again, but I think I'm resigned to loving the movie.

      -Christine W.

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    6. Montgomery's heirs didn't like the Anne TV series, for which I don't altogether blame them. Kevin Sullivan had all the materials necessary for good tv in those books, including a highly episodic, dramatic/comic series of chapters in the first of them. Instead of using them as a guideline, he removed most of the comedy and made Anne over into a kind of archetypal cheerleader, doing violence to Anne the dreamy poem-lover who walked off a bridge into a brook, and flavoured her cakes with liniment.

      Sigh. I don't want to spoil the tv version for you and yet in a way I do, if you see what I mean!

      Anne was supposed to be a beauty in the books, only of a type too refined to be apparent to ordinary women in Avonlea, i.e. her female elders, schoolmates, etc. Would men notice what women did not? They might. Men are less influenced by fashions in female beauty than women are. At least, that used to be true - perhaps not now! Anyway, in rural communities a girl might be valued as much for being energetic and a good cook (very important!) as for being pretty, as long as she didn't actually hurt the eyes.

      Alias Clio

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    7. p.s. Old song whose origins I do not know:

      I'm lookin' for a gal who cooks,
      I don't much mind the way she looks.
      I'll be hers until I die
      If she can bake a tater pie.

      Pie, pie, I love pie, p-i-e p-i-e pie,
      Jeepers, yipers, have a piece of pie, Sir,
      How I love that tater pie!

      Do not try to look this up online, as it seems to bear some resemblance to various foul-mouthed rap lyrics. (I just attempted this and regret it.)

      Clio

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    8. Clio,

      You're free to try ruining the movies for me, but it cannot be done. I think part of my difficulty with the books is that the movie is the original for me, and it feels like Lucy Maud Montgomery changed things. I realize this is horribly unfair to her, but it can't be undone. It's why my girls aren't allowed to to watch the Little House on the Prairie TV series, and I started reading the books to my eldest when she was four.

      Interesting that I don't remember the books being particularly comical or at least not more so than the movies. And I think there are many examples in the film of Anne's dreamy, poem-lover self. Maybe she's more outgoing? Is that what you mean? The best example of Anne being a cheerleader that I can think of was when she was getting all the neighbors on board with improving their properties, and that's from the books.

      If she's cooking with liniment, that's sure to turn away some suitors! Haha.

      -Christine W.

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    9. Christine W., someone once told me that Montgomery wrote Windy Poplars and Ingleside last of the series, and only under a lot of pressure from her publisher. She said she was tired of Anne. I think it shows in both books...which are essentially character sketches/short stories about characters connected to Anne, not really about Anne herself. Skip WP and Ingleside...House of Dreams is more about Anne, and good though rather sad. Rilla of Ingleside is about Anne's youngest child, and it too is good if quite sad in parts.

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    10. I watched movies 1&2 as a child but didn't read the books until two years ago. I love them. I love the movies, too- I think the first is fairly faithful and the second at least sticks to the spirit (the third is a different story). But Christine, read them!! They are delightful. And I love seeing her as a mother.

      I do think its realistic she doesn't know she loves Gil- she's been to stuck in her imagination! The romantic suitor (Mr Harris/Roy) makes her realize that's not what she wants. She is fortunate he didn't marry someone else.

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    11. I've always like both the movies (except the WWI of course) and the books. I think I saw the movies first and then devoted the books soon after that. The thing I remember what struck me most about the latter Anne books is Montgomery didn't seam to know how to write her as a married women, the character got sort of lost. I liked reading about her kids, but missed Anne. That was before I knew about Montgomery's own life and what happened to her though. But maybe she was never able to write a happy marriage because of her own life? Although it's been a while since I've read them.

      Never been able to watch the Little house TV show, it was too weird and not how I'd pictured Pa at all. Almanzo Wilder has the advantage of being a real person, but I liked him in the books. I have known a few Almonzo's and have a soft spot for the farmer boy type as I grew up around them.

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  6. Ah, all Anne's proposals! They were were necessary to the plot of the series, for they added nice bits of drama and even some comedy. They were also necessary for character. If Anne was so perfect and fun and intelligent, it would have been strange if Gilbert would have been the only guy in a very husband-dominated, marriage-friendly society who thought Anne was marriageable. Just think about all Marilla's property, too. Woo!

    Anyway, from a writing-fiction-for-girls perspective, such genius! Ironically, a real-life 1890s Marilla would have discouraged a real-life 1890s Anne from reading such romantic tosh--at least on a Sunday. Oh well, at least Gilbert was a Presbyterian country doctor, not a multi-millionaire. That said, he wouldn't have looked twice at any of us terrible papists. Other than Emily of New Moon's comedy Irish priest-neighbour and a few comedy Pepsis*, you won't find any Roman Catholics in LMM's world.

    *Don't use this word in Canada. It's VERY BAD.

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  7. Well Edward wasn't that wealthy. He certainly had more than your average labourer, but he's still characterized as a down-and-out clergyman, who's just been dumped by his fiancee for losing his fortune.

    And pepsis? Auntie what is this term - I've never heard it before.

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    1. Nevermind - I was just able to find it. It must be a regional (generational?) thing - because I've never heard this used before. We've got plenty of other slurs.

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    2. I dated a French-Canadian once, so I knew them all. At any rate, the word captures LMM's attitude towards them although actually in her day there were other words. Sigh, sigh, sigh. I'm only so tough on LMM because she was SO influential upon my attitude towards what life is "supposed" to be like. Meanwhile, she doesn't get enough credit in Canadian literary circles for her work--at least, she sure didn't when I was doing my degrees in Eng. Lit.

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    3. The first time I read Anne of Green Gables was for a very popular Children's Lit course at uni. I didn't like it the first pass through, but ended up writing a paper on it and came to enjoy it. I have since read the following two books. Writing the paper opened my eyes to a lot of subtle changes in characterization. So maybe she's finally starting to get a little more credit.

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    4. Edward Ferrars, with his multi-million dollar fortune or not, was filled to the eyeballs with class privilege and was never in any danger of the poverty that faces most of us every day, be we one parent, spouse, pay-cheque or car accident away from economic disaster. Part of the "problem" with an Austen novel, as a guide to life, is that it normalizes the very bizarre caste system of Regency British life. The film of "Mansfield Park" does do a pretty good job in showing what might await a woman of "good family" who marries a man with few prospects, to say nothing of the misery on which such great fortunes as Mr Darcy's and the Bertrams' were built on.

      I don't want to sound like a drum-banging Marxist here, but I do want to underscore that the clever fictions of a sharp-eyed Single woman satirizing Georgian English society are no guide to ordinary 21st century Roman Catholic social life in the USA or anywhere else.

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  8. I thought the men in "Little Women" hold up fairly well. Meg marries a tutor, Jo marries a professor, and Amy marries a rich kid. They all exhibited a normal set of behaviors, I thought, especially the two teachers. I was always glad Jo and Laurie didn't get married, and not so sure about his and Amy's long lasting happiness, though.

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    1. Rich kid next door, and they're all Americans in the same small town, so totally believable, and we could all meet chaps like them. Well, if we are interested in German Transcedentalists and Unitarians, that is. Sadly, the Great American Catholic Novel for Girls has not yet been written. My heavens, are there no Catholic literary heroes for us? So far they're all nominally C of E, or Presbyterian Gilbert, or New England Transcedental Protestant Alcott-ites! Well, at least I read Polish novels, so I have Staś Tarkowski. Who is, um, 14, so never mind. He's extremely annoying anyway.

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    2. I've been truing to think of Catholic literary heroes. Regina Dolman writes novels that are Catholic retellings of fairy tales, I've only read the first two. Two of the characters are brothers, realistic for the most part (it is based off a fairy tale after all). I'm not sure if I'd call it the Great American Catholic Novel for Girls, but it was an enjoyable, safe after 1960's read as a teenager.

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  9. Women expecting that men should be like the men in pre-1960 books strikes me as the same thing as men expecting that women should be like the models in lads' mags.

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    1. Except that I think in many ways, guys should BE more like men pre-1960. I do not think that a Playboy model is a particularly good goal...

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    2. Well, no. I think women expecting that men should be very wealthy is like men expecting women should be like the models in lads' mags. Men get objectified for their money, and women get objectified for their looks. Men get rejected by a certain kind of woman for not conspicuously displaying wealth, and women get rejected by a certain kind of man for not looking like super-models. Yet at the same time, women do naturally worry about whether a man can provide for a family, and we don't expect men to marry women they don't find attractive.

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  10. Hmm, realistic male characters that might be marriageable for a NCG? I agree about Sam. I'm reading Brothers K right now, and although the boys are all rather Extreme, I believe they are, to some extent, realistic, at least as far as their strengths. I know many Ivans especially.

    I would say that clearly flawed characters are way more realistic than idealized ones. Although Darcy has flaws that he has to overcome and they're kind of essential to the set up of the book, his conversion has never convinced me much and he's just too fortunate to be very realistic.

    I think both Charles Ryder and Sebastian Flyte are realistic, though of course Sebastian is really really rich.

    But maybe you're looking for characters in female authors? I think Austen is generally out. I like the Anne books and think the characters are relatable.

    How about Frankenstein?

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    1. Midwestern Fellow21 August 2015 at 01:19

      I think there are a number of realistic characters from the humans of Middle Earth.

      If you're willing ignore Boromir's status as the heir the steward of Gondor, he has some excellent qualities but also some bad flaws he has to struggle with. And the flaws are made worse by his father and the culture he grew up in.

      If you insist on someone more ordinary consider Beregond and Bard (from the Hobbit). Both were common soldiers originally, although by the end of their stories they were much more important.

      Oh, and since you were talking about Heyer, what about Mr. Goring from the Bath Tangle? He might still be too rich and have gone to too nice a university but at least he doesn't have a title and his wealth comes from helping to run the family business.

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  11. The ideal man? being wealthy never entered into the matter. Being able to support a wife and children did. I find the wealth of men in novels irrelevant as to whether they make good heroes and husbands. Character counts for more than anything. Looks are often considered before money by some. Even in real life I had friends tell me that the man I was dating was real nice but wasn't the most handsome man around. Well, I am no beauty either. After other matters broke us up, we came back together and married and had 20 years and 3 kids together before he died. He never was rich and some didn't consider him good looking but he had the qualities to make a good person and husband. I still look for character in the heroes in books. The hero needs character above all things looks and money are nothing without a good character.

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    1. Well, actually, this is not about the ideal man, but about whether or not real men are anything like men in books (or men in books anything like real men). If we are raising generations of girls hoping for Gilbert Blythe, when Gilbert Blythe was nothing but a figment of Lucy Maud Montgomery's imagination, then we really need to look back and say "Okay, how likely is it that we are going to meet a guy just like Gilbert?" At least Gilbert (though a fictional 19th century Presbyterian boy brought up in a small farming community in Prince Edward Island) is less like a space alien compared to men today than Mr Darcy is.

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  12. My husband says "Return of the Native" has a good workingman character who is awesome and gets married to the nice girl at the end. Diggory Venn even reminds him of a friend of his.

    It sounds like the heath is pretty dramatic too. Why does heath make everyone freak out all the time? It is just a nice tundra but with not enough snow; no need for all the ranting and wandering. People who don't like tundra should all just move to Florida and leave it to the Diggory Venn types.

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  13. Sorry booklover, I was, err, hibernating with my study books! Sadly, commercial law is less edifying than your gal's reading list, and I have now lost time glancing back through past reads in search of men of merit (perhaps there is a regular post there Seraphic? Men of Merit Mondays?)

    Sam of LOTR is admirable, though cliched as Seraphic says; Merry and Pippin are more 'realistic' blokes - hanging with their mates, up for a road trip and a bit of adventure, only to discover they're not so keen on the thrills when it may turn into spills, but they stick loyal, and when their wander lust is sated they recall home and get interested in the girls (after they have sorted out their hometown to be the way they like it). Surprised MidWest Lad picked Boromir, he is quite flawed, though belatedly loyal; I thought Aragorn and Faramir had the star qualities - both diligent, brave, loyal and astute, and Aragorn (& Arwen) chastely faithful for years before marriage! Though no doubt Aunty would not approve of such a long dating history without a ring ;) They were hardly ordinary fellas tho.

    How does Tolstoy's Constantine Levin in Anna Karenina shape up? Haven't seen the film, but in the book Tolstoy modeled Levin on himself, and Levin is both humble, caring and passionate, and persistent in courting Kitty Shcherbatsky, and they present as (learning to be) a model married couple.

    Seraphic, have you read Lalka (The Doll) by Boleslaw Prus? Would you accept Stas Wokulski as a possible literary Catholic NCB? A self made man of virtue, but blind to reality with romanticism ... (the book is a critique of blinkered male Polish romanticism, among other things). Though perhaps his sidekick Ignacy Rzecki is a Polish version of your worthy blue collar Sam Gamgee ;)

    At the risk of irking the ladies, what about Petruchio in Shakespeare's Taming of the Shrew? His apparent sexist bullying of his wife reveals his good intent at the end, and he certainly was patient and merciful to Katharina, in a kinda perverse way! :)

    Southern Bloke.

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    1. Oh, how could I forget Levin?! Definitely one of my favorite make characters.

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    2. Midwestern Fellow21 August 2015 at 18:50

      I suggested him because one of the requirements was to be realistic. Faramir and Aragorn are both too perfect (in my opinion) to be realistic. He also has the added benefit of coming from a broken family (bad father and deceased mother). Since his bad qualities were mostly caused by the Ring which sorely tested even the likes of Gandalf and Galadriel, I figured he'd be ok.

      I totally agree with Merry and Pippin and would throw in their buddy Fredegar as well.

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    3. I know Nate - he is admirable isn't he?

      But for a real life turned around 180 degrees, what about Malcolm X, the Black Muslim leader assassinated in the US in 1965? His autobiography (ghostwritten by Alex Haley) showed a man who got into the most sordid crimes & sins as a teen, but converted to the Black Muslim cult in jail, then split when their leader was exposed for infidelities; Malcolm X preached hate for whites to get independence for blacks, but led an exemplary personal life once he got religion, and loved his wife and children to the end. Not quite NCB though ;)

      Actually, its surprisingly hard to think of 'prominent, but normal' lay Catholic role models, eg Graham Greene. I hardly think Nancy Pelosi would count, eh Aunty? Best in my neck of the woods is an indigenous Catholic medical doctor who is now trying to sort out a failing Catholic boys school, and runs a 'turn no one away' medical practice in a poor rural area.

      Oh, and we had a (late) Irish property developer who donated a lot to Catholic charities.

      Southern Bloke

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    4. Thanks, Southern Bloke, Nate and Midwestern Fellow!! :) I had completely forgotten Levin too-he's a great character!! And "Fellowship of the Ring" is my favorite, so I always forget how awesome Merry and Pippin are too.

      And so true about Aragorn and Arwen-how many years was it before they were finally married? I always felt sorry for them!

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    5. Midwestern Fellow22 August 2015 at 01:48

      You're welcome. I believe it was several decades after they first met. Since Aragorn lived more than 2 centuries a couple decades wouldn't seem quite so long. Actually I'll just go look it up in the appendix.

      2951 Arwen and Aragorn first meet.
      2980 Engaged (Plight their troth)
      3018 Marriage

      So 30 years to get engaged and another 38 to get married (~120 years of marriage)

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    6. I have not read "Lalka" because, apart from a few super-contemporary Polish novels, I am slowly working my way through the works of Sienkiewicz in Polish. And I do mean slowly. The hero of "Madame" by Anton Libera is totally believable.

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    7. We have a lot of saints, blesseds and servants of God who were normal enough guys and gals. Pier Giorgio Frassati comes to mind. Lots of 20th century martyrs worth looking up.

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  14. My apologies MidWest Fella, you have convinced me I was too harsh on Boromir. By the stated criteria, he was a loyal servant of father & nation, and was repentant - to the point of death - of his grasping for the ring. I readily admit Faramir and Aragorn (and Arwen, Galadriel, etc) are the kind of fantasy ideal Seraphic warns against - witness the rather absurd sparring between Gimli and Eomer over who is prettier.

    And from your calculations, an 80 yr lifespan person today should date for 13 yrs, be engaged for 16, and married for 51 years! Of course I have not allowed for years before dating appeals, but crikey! That's still a long time prior to marriage... wonder what their priest said about marrying earlier and being a support to each other through the hard times ;)

    Southern Bloke.

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    1. Elrond was against it, wasn't he? Or was that just the movie.

      I know Tolkien himself had a long courtship due to Edith's parents disapproving. I believe they weren't even allowed to see each other.

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    2. Oh, also, I think Faramir isn't quite in the same level of fantasy as the others you mentioned. Actually, he seemed the closest to a NCB there is in the world of men. Devout, striving for virtue.

      I think the Rohirrim in general aren't fantasy characters (even Eowyn) but on the other hand, their hardiness, strength and general awesome horse skills/Anglo-Saxonness are pretty fantastic.

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  15. I meant read Lalka in English, Seraphic! I'm not literate in Polish sadly, can only manage a dzien dobry, so I didn't expect you to read a (thick) novel in Polish while learning the lingo ;) Good luck with Sienkiewicz.

    I should have given a caution earlier when positing Stas Wokulski as good bloke all round - The Doll may be a rather depressing read for your typical NCG readers, as Prus took numerous opportunities to paint single Polish girls seeking marriage as prone to affairs, gold-digging, and general flightiness. Keep something cheerful nearby when reading!

    Nate - Elrond was against the marriage, but mostly because he would lose the possibility of his daughter going 'into the West' with himself and the rest of the elves. I didn't know about Tolkien's delayed marriage - thanks for that! And yeh, those virtues are why I liked Faramir, but him being steward/prince kinda rules him out of Aunty's criteria for NCG's to look for realistic men (not princes) of today. Wouldn't want NCG's to look for Faramir qualities in Prince Harry now, would we? :)

    Southern Bloke.

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    1. No, we wouldn't. For one thing, it is practically illegal for Prince Harry to marry a Catholic girl. When one of his cousins--the cousin being ninth or eleventh in line for the throne--got engaged to a Catholic girl, she became an Anglican faster than you can say "Dissolution of the monasteries" or even "Hanged, drawn and quartered." Catholic girls with princess fantasies can look for Faramir qualities in Catholic princes, should they be introduced to any.

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  16. I think my phone ate my last response. For a novel with all Catholic characters and not a fairy tale, you can try Maria Chapdelaine - there are English translations available online.

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  17. I always preferred The Blue Castle to the Anne books. Now there's a hero.

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