Saturday 8 August 2015

Dating is Totally Optional Anyway

I was reading this article, which did not really have great parallels, actually. The author compares what dating was like for her grandmother, who grew up in a loving, intact, middle-class home, to the life of a poor college girl she meets on the plane, whose shattered family is pretty wacky, and whose little brothers languish in foster homes.

The grandmother's dating life (in the 1940s) did not really include "dating" as my mother's generation and mine would have understood it anyway. "Dating" for the grandmother meant being escorted by one boy or another to some social event of friends.  According to Gran, there wasn't physical stuff going on, which you can believe if you like, and very possibly there wasn't, since middle-class American boys had high standards regarding female chastity back then. By definition, most people are conventional, and chastity among young middle-class unmarried girls was conventional in the 1940s. Now it isn't. All you chaste young things are as conventional now as the Bloomsbury Set was in 1910. I won't tell you what Ann Barnhardt calls the modern-day USA, for I am a Canadian, and it would be rude.

Anyway, the unconventional chastity of Catholics and other Christians determined to live to the high standards of the Gospel leads to, or should lead to, a "dating" life similar to that of Theresa Martin's Grandma Alice: lots of social stuff with friends, while turning down wistful half-serious marriage proposals from male friends, and then agreeing to go out (and be taken home) by just one chap, while all your friends gossip about it, and he carries on not proposing for months on end.

The great gatekeeper of chastity is  almost always believed to be the girl, and it is a sad fact few Catholic girls will admit to, but it is often the Nice Catholic Girl who makes the first move in the direction of physicality. The Nice Catholic Boys, if they really are Nice and they really are Catholic, are too nervous and respectful of their dear friend and sweetheart to do such a thing, for she is a NICE CATHOLIC girl, darn it. So no doubt it is a surprise when the NCG, who doesn't understand why he hasn't tried to kiss her, kisses him, etc.  (Of course, this is greatly determined by how unconventionally Catholic he actually is. Don't forget, the conventional Catholic doesn't even go to Mass anymore.)

It's a terribly embarrassing situation, and as awful as it is having to give The Talk, it is even worse to find yourself being given The Talk by some blushing Nice Catholic Boy as if you were a scarlet-taloned nymphomanic or something. It is, in fact, excruciating, not that I know anything about that personally, of course. (Ahem.) There are better ways than lunging at the man to determine whether or not your Nice Catholic Boyfriend is a closeted homosexual.

(Incidentally, dear Nice Catholic Boys, I am sure you are depressed and horrified by the idea than Nice Catholic Girls will worry that you are a closeted homosexual if you do not attempt some gallantry upon the person of a girl you haven't yet decided is the Future Mrs You. I am sorry, but you would be amazed by the number of guys who will lead a girl down the garden path just to "fit in" at their Catholic college, even in 2015. Therefore, if you haven't made a move on the beautiful angel who has dropped into your life by the fourth date, you should say something like "You're almost as beautiful as my confessor is strict." Give the impression that you would be all over your sweetheart like Dracula in a blood bank if your confessor weren't the New Torquemada, and all will be well.)

Anyway, I am all for Single Catholics getting together all the time for fellowship and fun, although I suggest mixing it up by inviting your Single Catholic pals out to your swing-dance night or to see your Little Theatre group perform. It wouldn't hurt for you all to meet other people, or to do something new. I also recommend meeting other Single Catholics in other dioceses, and even abroad, either at events especially for Singles or during events honouring your favourite saints or ways of worship. (Both World Youth Day and the Chartres Pilgrimage feature many like-minded people, although do think twice about wearing skimpy clothing at WYD or your photo will turn up on a sedevacantist website. At the Chartres Pilgrimage, angels appear and drop muumuus over the scantily clad--FACT.)

One big difference between Grandma Alice's generation of American boys and yours is that the American economy was red-hot, thanks to that most profitable war. (The UK was skint.) Also, entertainment wasn't the be-all and end-all of life, so people didn't think their lives were supposed to resemble those of movie stars, singers and sports heros, but vice versa. The average (and therefore conventional) American boy wanted to get a good job, and get married to a pretty girl, and have children.

If he wanted to, he could get a job on the factory floor at 16, and work his way up to foreman. Or he could enlist and work his way up the ranks. Or he could go to college, get a job in an office, and work his way up to the corner office. Marrying a supportive gal was seen, not as a hindrance, but as a big help on the way up somewhere. This whole "Don't get tied down young, boys" nonsense is from the 1950s, not the 1940s.  (Playboy was founded in 1953; a lot of what we blame the 1960s for actually germinated in the 1950s).

However, Catholic boys, if properly catechized, are not going to assume marriage is a big nasty rock around a guy's neck. If you are hanging out with Catholic boys all the time, and they are never asking anyone to marry them, then I suggest that the reason for this is the economy. If, however, they are asking girls all over the place to marry them, and you literally are the ONLY (ONLY) Single girl left in your rapidly dissolving social set, then maybe we can have a specialized chat.

Meanwhile I've been married twice (alas), and neither time did I marry a "boyfriend" with whom I went on "dates". The first guy was my "friend" and, as I wasn't going to "date" a non-Catholic, all those dinners he paid for (poor man), were "just as friends." The second guy was "Aelianus's friend" and "my host", and we didn't go on any "dates" either. He put me up and thought up some good outings for the Canadian guest, and we got engaged before I left.  How fortuitous for us two crazy-in-love people that neither party turned out to be an ax-murderer. Needless to say, since I didn't meet the Perfect Man for Me until I was 37, I wish instead of going on "dates" I had spent my youth solely hanging out with friends. And taking advantage of the New Eastern European Economy, but that is another story.

Dating is not necessary to bring marriage about. That said, I  STRONGLY recommend you really get to know the guy who asks you to marry him before you agree to do so, for you might not be as lucky as me and B.A. The solution is, of course, friendship. Make as many guy friends (acquaintances really, I'm not suggesting you talk to guys as if they were girls) as you can, always behaving in such a way that they will feel chivalrously towards you, instead of dismissive or resentful. The more Single guys who know you, the greater the chance some of them will suspect you are the Perfect Future Mrs Him, and the greater the chance you will meet the Perfect Future Mr You.

27 comments:

  1. Oh. It’s been a while since I had enough time to scroll through your blog posts and make comments. There are two thoughts after reading this piece of yours I’d like to share. First, as a 20-something, which I am (luckily) not anymore, I bought into an idea that if I want to get married one day I have to do many things I didn’t feel like doing, i.e. drink beer, party hard, make out with strangers, date-just-for-the sake-of-dating and so on. Those were the things people who were apparently luckier in love than I was were doing. When I realized these are not 100% effective means to find a spouse and I don’t really NEED to do these things, I was relieved.
    Secondly, I don’t like the concept of dating as a job interview (husband/wife material checkout). When you’re focused on comparing the person you are seeing to your ideal and ticking the boxes, you might miss out on knowing them as they are. What I like to do more is just to meet people casually and have fun together whether only the two of you or within a pack of friends.

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    1. Oh man, Pearlmusic. Poor you. I would become a school chastity speaker just to tell 19 year olds they don't have to do that. Oh oh oh. (Bangs lead on chair.)

      Yes, after thinking about this for at least nine years, I have decided the very best thing is to stop going out to meet "potential husbands" and to go out to meet "potential friends." From the "potential friends" will most probably come the husband.

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    2. But how does one become "friends" with men? Like I said in an earlier comment:

      The night was full of revelations. I explained that if I have had several encounters over a not-too-long period of time with a guy and he has not asked me out, then he's not attracted to me and that I then friend-zone him. The men said that a guy can like a girl for ages and do nothing about it. Great. Bloody fantastic. (By friend-zone, I mean that I'll treat him as a casual acquaintance and not initiate contact with him. I don't mean that I'll treat him like a female friend and ring him up to chat.)

      And then there was the whole friendship-first thing. I have zero idea how that's supposed to work. We're supposed to be "good friends first" but we're not supposed to put guys in the friend-zone? I have little interest in becoming friends with a guy in the way that I'd become friends with a girl. Like, for example, if I am friends with a girl, sure, I'll ring her up to chat. But if there's a guy I like or could like, I'm not going to do that, because that's against The Rules. But then how do you become friends with guys if the guys themselves aren't making contact with you aside from at social gatherings?

      It all seems too complex. I would be open to the advances of pretty much any of the single Catholic men I know, but nothing is forthcoming. I'm not the only girl who is not being asked out, but I have seen male friends ask women out days after meeting them. Granted, those situations usually crash and burn, but it underscores that yes, if these guys found me attractive, they would have asked me out. So where do I find the men who are seeking my type? I'm toying with the idea of going online, because not being able to do anything is kind of frustrating.

      I even told some male friends who (I assume) are not attracted to me in the slightest to go and find me a husband. I was only sort of joking.

      Julia

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  2. After reading the article, I don't think it's fair to compare a woman from a loving, intact family with a woman whose mother is mentally ill and has four children with different fathers. Of course the former is going to have a happier and more successful love life, and it just isn't the case that Your Average modern family is a broke one beset by mental illness. You can't take the best of one era and the worst of another one, and claim that this shows that era 1 was better. I'm not saying you're wrong, mind, but that the argument is fallacious.

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    1. I totally agree with you. That is the problem I had with the article. Sorry I didn't make that clearer!

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  3. Solid post.

    I socialise a lot. I have a wide social circle that includes many single men. The last time a Catholic man asked me out was three years ago.

    Anyway, just in the past two weeks I have had some interesting discussions with male and female friends about the nature of men and women.

    At dinner, I mentioned to three male friends that I think that a certain Catholic girl we know is very beautiful and pretty much the Holy Grail of Catholic Girls. All three disagreed! One guy rated her as a 7/10, and he said he was being generous because she's his friend. Seriously, this girl is gorgeous. If she's not even a seven, I'm a rotting corpse. Seriously. I do not hold a candle to her. So I felt pretty worried about that. I do have to remind myself that this guy in particular is, by his own admission, very shallow and picky. If a girl is not a Ukrainian supermodel, she's ugly, according to him. And he thinks that all non-white women are unattractive. I took him through my Facebook friends list. Girls who I think are really pretty he flat-out dismissed. He reminds me of PPS actually. And his favourite model is 5'8" and has a 23-inch waist. TWENTY-THREE INCHES. I'm 5'8" and the smallest my waist ever got was 27 inches, and by then I'd long since stopped menstruating.He also claims to like "crazy" women.

    I have been assured, however, that not all Catholic men are like him. Another male friend says that the rating system is a bit of a lark and not that serious.

    I mentioned at another dinner that I believe that a man will sum up a woman instantly to decide whether or not she is attractive, and then never change his mind on that opinion. The guys disagreed! Wha...?

    The night was full of revelations. I explained that if I have had several encounters over a not-too-long period of time with a guy and he has not asked me out, then he's not attracted to me and that I then friend-zone him. The men said that a guy can like a girl for ages and do nothing about it. Great. Bloody fantastic. (By friend-zone, I mean that I'll treat him as a casual acquaintance and not initiate contact with him. I don't mean that I'll treat him like a female friend and ring him up to chat.)

    A short guy told me that men don't care about female height, but that they're aware that some women won't date guys shorter than them, and so they don't ask taller women out. He also said that if I want to seem amenable to dating men shorter than me that I should stop wearing heels, because shorter men will interpret heels-wearing as a signal that a girl wants to date taller men (or something -- I don't get it. I'm certainly not trying to send that message by wearing them. I just like them.)

    And then there was the whole friendship-first thing. I have zero idea how that's supposed to work. We're supposed to be "good friends first" but we're not supposed to put guys in the friend-zone? I have little interest in becoming friends with a guy in the way that I'd become friends with a girl. Like, for example, if I am friends with a girl, sure, I'll ring her up to chat. But if there's a guy I like or could like, I'm not going to do that, because that's against The Rules. But then how do you become friends with a guy?

    Julia

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  4. So I have had an emotionally stressful week, mainly freaking out that I'm ugly and wondering if I should get a nose job or something. I'm at the "What do they want??????" stage.

    Mainly I'm scared that I look even worse than I thought I did, which is already pretty bad. What if the guys are bagging out my appearance behind my back? And, like, I make an effort with my appearance. I'm doing pretty much the best I can afford.

    I am still left unsure as to whether men have very rigid standards for female beauty or . Perhaps they do have their types. I just don't seem to fit any type!

    People talk about "inner beauty" and "personality matters the most" and "it's what's on the inside that counts", but when I hear that, all I hear is "You're ugly, but some guy could probably oh-so-graciously overlook that because you'll make a good mother." I don't want to be some man's "realistic choice" or consolation prize, but since I'm not pretty (at best I could be called "regal" or "handsome") it seems as if I might have t accept that I'll be settled for.

    Julia

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    1. I doubt they are, but if they are, stop caring. Guys who sit around talking about what-girl-is-hot are too young to get married. They aren't ready to get married until they have moved onto talk about money.

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    2. You mean...which-girl-is-rich sort of talk?

      Julia

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    3. No!! How to save, get out of debt, make enough to support a family, save on rent etc.

      How to make friends with guys: go to social gatherings with groups of men and women, throw your own (even if small). I think its ok to contact men to invite them to these things- maybe seraphic disagrees. Even if you're interested in the man in question.

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    4. Also that guy is very strange. And men have different tastes. My husband thinks I'm stunning, did from the moment we met, but I doubt any other man shares his view. As Hannah says in the Little Women 95 movie, you don't need scores of suitors. You only need one, if he's the right one.

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    5. I don't disagree. I don't think it is foolish to ask guys out on "dates", but you can knock yourself out inviting them to parties. I recommend having joint parties with female housemates, or female friends, and inviting lots of people, guys and gals.

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  5. Unless Mr. 23-inch-waist is either a millionaire or an Apollo, he will shortly realize his foolery. His own personality will clearly attract no one.
    :P

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  6. Mr 23-Inch Waist is an ex-male model.

    Julia

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    1. Well in that case (partly from stereotyping and partly from what you say) he is probably a narcissist who would make any woman miserable. Why would you worry about such a boob's opinion?

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    2. I'm not worried about his opinion. I'm not attracted to him and vice versa. I just fear that he represents the majority view.

      Look, this guy has problems. I won't deny it.

      Julia

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    3. Well considering that he has problems, by definition he can't represent the majority, because otherwise he would be not problematic but normal.
      Also, it's a cliché, but you need new friends.

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    4. If you don't mind my giving 2¢ worth, Mr. 23-inch Waist is a complete idiot and not at all representative of guys, at least NCBs.

      But seriously, if someone rates a girl 7 out of 10 that you think is way prettier than you, that doesn't mean that all men agree with him. I have seen stiff disagreement among men on this subject. Some girls who think they are not as pretty are considered "regal" or "elegant" or "graceful" by some men.

      After all, not all queens looked the same. Not all models look the same. Not all wives look the same. Some men like red frizzy hair, some like straight black hair. Some like curly, some wavy, some a mixture of all.

      And, mind blowing revelation, perhaps, but not everyone falls in love with what he thought was his type. Men also mature and start to see beauty in new things and start to value even different physical aspects of beauty.

      In short, I believe that every woman could be a considered the most beautiful woman by some man. I believe that men don't always know what they want. I believe they sometimes change their minds, and I believe that anyone who will talk so bluntly to a girl in a public social situation about his particular skewed view of beauty at that time knowing full well that she doesn't fit it is either a) attracted to you and is way too scared, insecure, and emotionally stunted to admit it, or b) a complete and utter jerk with no sense of propriety.

      You should either ask him cold of he's flirting with you, which will make him seriously uncomfortable, or just completely ignore what he's saying, because it's nonsense.

      That's all.

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    5. Thank you, Nate. Very sensible!

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    6. Meanwhile, I wonder why the guy is an EX-male model? That suggests he had to put up with some serious rejection about his looks, not to mention may have a very skewed idea about the importance of looks in human relationships. Also, I bet he has some very interesting stories about homosexuality in the modelling industry that he might not feel comfortable remembering, let alone telling. This "I must have the PERFECT WOMAN; she must have a 23 inch waist" thing could reflect that, too.

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  7. One other thing: he "likes crazy women?" Hmmm... I wonder what might cause THAT....
    Ur-Average-Man this guy is not.

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  8. You were right about him being an Apollo---although I would like to see his portfolio for myself. For advice-giving reasons, naturally. (Auntie S looks shifty.)

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    1. Ahahaha! I will say that the couple of male models I knew were not that attractive to me, and one I considered weird looking. Not ugly, but maybe a 7 out of 10. ;-) Apparently there's plenty of difference between women on this matter as well. Good thing, or there wouldn't be too many humans!

      Thank you, Nate, for that blast of sanity. :-)

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    2. Yeah, I could email you a link to his portfolio, but I'm not going to do that because, well, good-looking people tend to get away with a lot and I think that his pretty face causes people to be more tolerant of his rubbish than they'd be of anyone else's rubbish.

      Julia

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    3. Us? Here? By thunder, pretty faces are a dime a dozen these days, but good men are hard to come by.

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    4. PIC-tures! PIC-tures! PIC-tures....!

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    5. Forget it, Seraphic. No way.

      Julia

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